Richard Jacobs:  Hello. This is Richard Jacobs with the future tech and future tech health podcast and I have Beth Tuck, director of science education at Gen space. The website is genspace.org. Beth thanks for coming.

Beth: Thank you so much for having me.

Richard Jacobs:  Yeah, tell me what’s the premise of Genspace?

Beth: Yeah, so Jen space is an open-access life sciences lab and we are a safe and inclusive space where anybody from whatever background can come to do their own science to learn some science, uh, whatever topics they think are interesting. We have workshops and classes, things like that for them to explore. The real goal is to make this emerging biotechnology more accessible through hands-on, um, hands-on learning and dialogue about its implications for the world. So our goal is really fundamentally about making these really exciting emerging life science technologies more accessible to people.

Richard Jacobs: So who tends to come to genspace? Students? High school or college ? or professor?

Beth: Yeah our audience is incredibly diverse and we are very fortunate too in our origin story has been founded by an artist, a couple of scientists and journalists and so on. And so many of those folks and more are represented in our, in our audiences. So the primary audience that we serve is really adult curious learners. And so those folks are people like architects and industrial designers and um, high school teachers and, um, computer scientists who have heard a lot about emerging biotechnology but maybe haven’t had a chance to actually do it or really understand what it’s really about. Um, they, they often haven’t had a biology class or, or some sort of hands-on biology experience for many years. And so this is their first kind of foray back into this technology in a way that, um, is driven by their own curiosity and their own, um, uh, desire to understand the tech a little bit more.

Richard Jacobs:  That’s awesome. I like to do that.

Beth:  Yeah, come by.

Richard Jacobs: Yeah. So what kind of things do people do when they come? Like, do you have presets programs that can do, or did they propose an experiment they want to run?

Beth: Yep, you’re absolutely right. So our programming falls into the kind of two main categories. The first is our courses and workshops. And so these are, um, courses or hands-on activities, things like that, that are led by experts in their fields and anybody can attend. So you don’t have to have any prior experience before you show up to the lab, Um, and again, these are really hands-on experiential learning things. So the topics range from, we have an introductory class, which is our, our standard biohacker boot camp. It’s great for people who haven’t had biology in a little while and keep hearing about it, but maybe aren’t as comfortable or familiar with the techniques or the vocabulary so they can come in and get a crash course in how to actually do this kind of science, Um, there are intro classes. We have advanced biotech classes that things like CRISPR, cas nine, we actually teach people how to do that and yeast cells. And then we have things like protein engineering and you know, next-generation drug development, things like that. Topics that are kind of in this cutting edge emerging space. Um, and then in addition to our, our science topics, we also have a really nice selection of courses that are in the bio-art and Biodesign space. And so these are things like growing furniture, using mushroom roots or um, making your own leather or paper products out of the scoby that comes from growing Kombucha, things like that, which are a little bit more on the creative side. So it really serves a wide range of audiences in terms of our courses and workshops. Um, in addition to those, we have a membership program so people can join the lab as members and they can have, um, if they sign up, they have 24/7 access to the lab to conduct their own experiments, investigate whatever scientific question they’re interested in within some safety guidelines, of course, Um, and also to produce their own products and projects that they themselves find really important and interesting. I can go into more detail if you’re interested.

Richard Jacobs:  Yeah. Somebody like you said, making furniture from mushrooms.

Beth: Yeah. It sounds surreal, right? It’s really, it’s really amazing. So this is a material that’s grown in popularity over the last few years called mycelium. And it is, um, typically when people think of mushrooms, they think of actual like a cap, but this is actually the underground structure of the mushrooms, which is actually the more, um, more prevalent structure in most mushrooms theses. And so these roots can grow into whatever shape you mold them into. So you start by just mixing up some of these, um, my feeling I’m bits and feeding them some hemp structures and then they’re able to grow into all these different types of shapes. So in the past, we had designer Danielle trophy who taught a workshop on designing your own lamps using these kinds of mushroom roots as the material and most recently designer grant Goldner led a workshop on how to make up a picture frame or a mirror. I’m using this material. Okay.

Richard Jacobs: Oh Wow. Hmm. Who are you tending to attract? I mean, what kind of teachers and what kind of attendees and how was it marketed? Do you have like a, a list that you send notifications out to do you joined gen space and you get updates on what classes are coming here? How does it work?

Beth: Yeah, so, um, our audiences find us in all sorts of ways. We do have some teacher-specific outreach that we do to encourage them to come and think about how they can then apply some of these technologies in their classes. We get a lot of, um, biology teachers of course, but then we also get like an occasional chemistry teacher in occasional art or design, um, both in the K12 space and that the university and community college level. So, last week, for example, we were hosting our crisper course and we had a community college teacher who came to take it to try to better help one of her students who’s interested in using it in the lab. Um, so folks find us oftentimes just by googling like science activities in New York. Um, but then we do have a mailing list that we specifically encourage folks to learn about our workshops and programming that’s coming up. Um, so, and we have a pretty active social media profile, so please check us out on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

Richard Jacobs:  That needs to be in every state, every city. Really.

Beth: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, um, right now we’re, we’re pretty busy keeping our space in an operation, but, um, what’s, what to me is really exciting is the fact that this idea has caught on in such a, such an exciting way. So, we were the first community bio biology lab, but as we were getting started, several others were also in the works where I had started meeting up or other sorts of things had happened, um, largely in the bay area. And then since 2009 when we got our start, um, I think there’s something about 120, uh, community biology labs that have sprung up across the globe and they’re in every continent. They’re in every region. And people are really excited about this idea of making biology more accessible and more doable by folks who have a passion and a drive to do it but don’t necessarily have access to the lab, um, or the, um, mentorship, uh, to do it on their own otherwise. So this is a space where, where people really come together to science together.

Richard Jacobs: Okay. Yeah. Most of the people that come to your classes, I mean, that’s probably their, it’s not their only experience in life. I mean, they’ll never get access to the kind of stuff that you have in the lab there or that level of instruction.

Beth: Yeah. We think it’s really special and unique to be able to create a space where people can not only get hands-on experience, real direct, uh, experience doing the kinds of technologies that usually are reserved for academic medical centers and research labs, um, or industry, um, uh, industry organizations, things like that. So it’s, it’s really special that they could come and actually do it. But also then that they have people who have deep content knowledge and subject matter expertise that they can actually ask their questions and get them answered in real-time with people that they trust. That’s really special.

Richard Jacobs: What do you notice about the people that come? Do you ask them when they’re done? What was it like and then, yeah, maybe combining survey data and just adding total things you’ve seen and expressed yourself. Like what’s, um, what do you know about the whole process now that you didn’t know before?

Beth: Yeah, um, we do some evaluation, um, through surveys and things like that, but I definitely think the more powerful data for us is the stories, the conversations that happen as a result that people taking these classes. So, um, the, you know, one example recently we had, uh, a student come all the way from Los Angeles and she works normally at the jet propulsion lab. Um, but with NASA, and she came cause she had heard about our, our, um, our workshops and really wanted to take the CRISPR class. Um, and then as a result she ended up taking like five or six other classes with us and spent like two weeks here in New York, just kind of diving deep into all of the good science that we can provide, Um, and so she’s bringing that back to her work, thinking about the role that she plays as a designer for the organization and thinking about the next step in biological materials and sustainable design.

Richard Jacobs: Hmm. Are you getting more novices or more experienced people in the field that just want to have a different experience than what they’re doing?

Beth: Yeah, it’s a wide variety and that same class that are telling you the designer from, from LA was then we also had a medical oncologist, a scientific illustrator, a science journalist, an ambitious high school student, and a lawyer and a tech entrepreneur. So it was a really diverse group of people all in the same room, which again, I think it speaks to the power that we have in terms of bringing people together.

Richard Jacobs:  Well, it’s not easy to entice all those people and satisfy them with the curriculum. You know, you don’t want to make it too hard. You don’t want to make it too easy. So what do you guys do in the class? Like how do you figure out how to teach, what level you teach to et cetera?

Beth: Yeah, I think that’s a really great question. Um, so a lot of our instructors really do think about ways of making their curriculum, um, accordion-style. So there are things then that they can, um, be very big picture, very conceptual, very, I’m clear at the top level. And then there are ways than that they can dive a little bit deeper depending on the interests or the questions that the students in the class started to ask. Um, and so they do think about building the curriculum so that it can expand and contract depending on the needs of the audience. Um, so they are very thoughtful about, um, the content that they develop and then I also work directly with them, um, to come up with some of those strategies for how they can, how they can, um, make sure that they’re attentive to things like vocabulary and language, which tends to be a big barrier when people are learning biology and biotech for the first time. Um, but also just, um, ways of making the hands-on experiences, really, really engaging and fun and playful and creative so that they get, they get a chance to really see the applications of this technology and in real life.

Richard Jacobs:  Hmm, What about the experiments that have gone on there, what are some examples and what happened? How long was the person there?

Beth: Yeah, so we have a range of people who use our lab as their lab or as their studio and they come, um, again from different backgrounds. So our typical member could be either a scientist, who has an IDF or a biological product that they want to design. Um, and so they may come in and do just some early-stage testing of an idea and then they may end up leaving, deciding to start their own company. And joining a traditional incubator or a startup kind of accelerator program, things like that. Um, we have a fair number of people who consider themselves like hobbyists of science. And so instead of spending their time birdwatching, they may bring their favorite fungus here to the lab to try to analyze it, CNA and understand what ccs live in different parts of the, of the country for example. Then we have, yeah, so those guys, those guys are funny. They have a good time and they really just do this because they love it. There’s a deep curiosity about the world around them that they can explore using this kind of technology as their thing. Um, and then the last group of people that use our lab pretty regularly is artists and designers. And so these folks, um, are very deeply curious about biotech and its implications for our world. And, and again, as I kind of said, they have a, um, often don’t have access to the kind of lab facilities or mentorship that they need to, to really use this kind of stuff in their work. And so we have a pretty decent cohort community of people who are artists and designers who are using our lab as their studio space and really thinking about the ways to bring biology into their work.

Richard Jacobs:  Hmm. Experiments or experiences that really stand out to you?

Beth: Yeah. So yeah, I think the artists and designers for sure are the ones that have really compelling projects. They really bring a different perspective to the work that um, for me as a trained molecular biologist, I really admire that kind of creativity and curiosity that they bring. Um, so our, our biggest claim to fame in the art world probably is the work that Heather did. A project called stranger visions. In this project she went around New York City and collected discarded objects, things like a cigarette butt, um, Coffee Cup pair, things that she could find on the subway. For example. What she did was take those back to the lab, extract DNA from those objects and run it through a handful of pieces of software that she could use to kind of predict what people might look like based on their DNA and used a 3D reconstruction, a 3D printing technology to print faces of what these people might’ve looked like and put them on display with our discarded objects. So you can imagine how it might feel to be walking down the street and see a piece of gum that you thought you threw away and instead of seeing  your face on exhibition at an art gallery.

Richard Jacobs: Have you seen any correlation the faces and the, I don’t know, can you think about the people that throw away certain objects that tell you something about them? Accurate?

Beth: Yeah. Yeah, that’s such a great question. So that her, her, her project was certainly on the art side, so it was kind of a nice base of like, well what if and how could we? Um, but there are technology companies, biotechnology companies that are using this kind of tech too, um, for use in things like forensic investigations. So the idea that you could, um, potentially identify someone based on their DNA from a crime scene, for example, or an unidentified human remains, for example, that you could, you could potentially figure out what they might’ve looked like. So that you could better identify them. Um, so, so her work was really taking a spin on, on the technology that those folks were developing with the idea of calling into question, what does it mean to have a new era of genomic surveillance and what does it mean to not own your information once you discarded it. So those kinds of big social questions that arise when you start to think about the connection between art and science.

Richard Jacobs:  Okay. Hmm. Okay. What’s ahead for Gen space and where do you guys see, where are you going? Where are you headed?

Beth: Yeah, I mean we talk a lot about where this field is going. There are so many fantastic, exciting developments happening in the emerging life sciences, in the biotech space and the bio-design space. And so we definitely feel like we’ve got a role to play in facilitating folks who, again, don’t have traditional academic training but really have a great idea or a great project or a great art piece in mind and they just need space to be able to do it. Um, so we’re going to continue to cultivate that community of people who, um, want to be able to do this kind of technology themselves and make a space for them to be able to do it. Um, the other piece is that the DIY bio or community biology field is also expanding at a very, very rapid pace. As I mentioned, there are something like 120 labs globally and over the last couple of years, there’s been a movement towards coordinating and organizing, um, the community biology group, Um, and seeing what kind of role we can play in the, in the future. And as these, as these labs become more and more common, um, we, what support and what help can we provide to other organizations that are coming up. So for example, right now we have a project going where we have a biosafety fellow here in our lab and she’s been working on understanding the safety practices that are happening in all these community labs to try to write a manual or a set of resources that then as new community labs get started, they have something to turn to. In a way that isn’t just trying to mimic the biosafety practices that happen in academic research institutions, which are very well equipped and very well suited or very well, um, complied and instead really thinking what are the needs and opportunities for good biosafety practices in community lab spaces. So we’re really setting the stage for other folks to be able to follow our model in terms of, um, how to best make sure that the work that we do is safe, environmentally responsible and, um, and helps folks meet their goals of, of being able to do their own science.

Richard Jacobs: Okay. So what if I want to do an experiment but, uh, I don’t have a lab and I don’t have the personnel to do it. Can I? Virtue guys will say, Hey, I want to run this experiment and uh, I’m willing to pay you for this space and anyone you can recruit there, I’m willing to pay them this per hour to run it. And do you ever do a situation like that?

Beth: Yeah. Yeah. So for, if you are representing small business, for example, we do have an option for a premium membership. And so, um, that gives you access for I think two to three people from your team to be able to come and use the lab again as your space for a startup. Um, so we again would provide all the lab equipment, the basic plastic, um, some general lab supplies and you could come and use the lab at 24/7. So again, the process then is, is submitting your project proposal to our biosafety fellow who will review it and make sure that it checks out, that it follows all of our guidelines for best practices in a community lab. That we’re not using any organisms that are going to accidentally make people sick and all the other kinds of process and no chemicals that are gonna be particularly harmful. So she does check through those sorts of things. But again, as long as it passes that they see in muster, um, anyone can come and use this lab.

Richard Jacobs:  Well, what about stuff that’s a, you know, it’d be a study. I mean, like a lot of stuff I know needs to be reviewed by IRB and all that, but uh, Yep. Do you ever get those kinds of requests for those kinds of experiments?

Beth: Ah, that’s such a great question. You know, it’s been on our mind because we historically have never had anyone come to use the lab for anything that involves human subjects. Um, but there have been some questions about like, what, what role do we have to play and people wanting to investigate their own genomes, for example. And so do we have the right or the ability to say, no, you can’t investigate your DNA, uh, here in this lab because we don’t have x, y, z approval or something along those lines. So there’s, there’s a lot of really good rich discussion on, um, what, what is the role of a community lab in playing on those kinds of research topics to date? Again, we just, we don’t do any human subjects research here in the lab. And so folks are encouraged to think about microorganisms or bio-design sort of projects if they’re thinking about the research here.

Richard Jacobs:  Hmm. Okay. Um, any, uh, future plans, things you’d like to see happen that, uh, are not there yet?

Beth: Oh Gosh. Yeah. So there are as many opportunities in the world. There are, Interested in seeing as kind of play and pursue. Um, I have my eye on a series of investigations that we might do to explore the microbiome of our local ecosystem. So there’s some really interesting environment here in our neighborhood. We’re located in sunset park in Brooklyn. So I have some, some curiosity to understand what microbes are living in our soil and how does that, how has that influenced by the history of industrialization and post-industrialization, environmental contamination, things along that line that that might be relevant for the people who live in our neighborhood. So I’ve got some ideas there. And then of course, um, longer-term goals of, of encouraging and increasing the opportunities for bio artists and bio designers to work in our space. I think that they come to the table with those unique ideas and unique, uh, a perspective that we really want to encourage them to explore the tech and think about ways that it could be used and what it could tell us.

Richard Jacobs: But what if I wanted to come in there and like, you know, swab by the nose and then cheek or under my arms and look at my microbiomes. Could you do something like that?

Beth: So we are a biosafety level one lab, which means that we only work with organisms that we know what they are and we know how they might affect our health. And so for those kinds of experiments, um, we can’t actually work with those critters. You could potentially swap them, but then we see all the plates. So you can’t actually do anything with it after that in our lab. Now you could, of course, see that with some other, um, citizen science kinds of projects, like the American gut project or other, other sorts of things where you could get that information back and we could help you with the analysis. We have a strong community of people who have expertise in bioinformatics and so there’s definitely an opportunity to investigate the data here.

Richard Jacobs:  Huh. Okay. Well very good. So what’s the, uh, what’s the best way for people to find out more about memberships and check out of class? And the proposing experiments and interacting with you guys.

Beth: Yeah, the best way to get in touch with us, um, to learn about classes, workshops, membership, um, outreach events, you know, fun, social things that we have going on is definitely our website. So that’s www.genspace.org and to check out our social media, which is @GenSpaceNYC on all the different platforms. Um, so we try to update those, do those things regularly so that folks are aware of the great things that are happening. And it also gives me space where if you want to join our newsletter you can sign up there

Richard Jacobs:  And if someone’s not in New York, um, you know, they contact you, would you be able to steer them? Is Fine. Finding a similar place where they live?

Beth: Yeah, definitely. We can help point them to as some of the other public resources of community labs and we can also do our best to point them to other folks in our network that might be more, more close to where they are. And we do have quite a number of people who come and travel to New York to come to visit our lab or to come to take classes with us. So, so definitely want to encourage folks to come and check us out in person.

Richard Jacobs:  it’s like CRISPR biotech tourism. Yeah. Well, very good. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Beth: I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. Have a good day.